Earlier this week, I sat down with historian and author of “Strongmen: Mussolini to the Present” Ruth Ben-Ghiat for a conversation about the war in Iran, how history can inform us about our moment, and what we can all do. We also discussed how ritual humiliation functions as a political tool, why this war is unlikely to produce the rally-around-the-flag effect Trump may have hoped for, and what it will actually take — from elites, from citizens, from all of us — to turn this moment into a political turning point.

As Ruth and I agreed on, disasters don’t become turning points on their own. They need people willing to name what’s happening, hold the line on institutions, and act — nonviolently, persistently — in the name of something better. The conversation is available in full above.

Thinking about… is a reader-supported publication. To receive new posts and support my work, consider becoming a free or paid subscriber.

From Thinking about… via this RSS feed